A packed Lanesville Community Center on Thursday night saw incumbent first-term Mayor Greg Verga and former city Health Director Mary Ellen Rose throw sharp elbows when it came to taking on topics such as public participation in state government and the state’s MBTA communities multifamily zoning law, among others. Both are seeking a two-year term as mayor in the Nov. 7 Municipal Election.
The more than 1 1/2-hour debate on Oct. 19 was moderated by former City Councilor Valerie Nelson, who gave candidates three minutes to answer questions followed by a shorter rebuttal.
Verga is a life resident of Gloucester who grew up in a large family downtown. He is a graduate of Gloucester High School and holds a bachelor degree in communication from Salem State. He’s a married father of three grown children and two grandchildren, and lives in West Gloucester. He formerly served eight years on the School Committeer and six years as a city councilor.
Rose grew up in a fishing family in West Gloucester, and moved away after graduating Gloucester High to go to college. She went on to earn a doctorate in health promotion/education from American University and has worked in health sciences as an educator, scientist, consultant, and published academic, according to her bio. A mother of two adult children, she and her husband moved back to the city in 2019 and she wanted to give back. She served as the city’s health director from August 2021 to January 2022.
Participation in government, and transparency
Nelson asked about increasing public participation in city government.
Verga said a silver lining of the COVID-19 pandemic was use of Zoom meetings. However, he did not want to lose the resulting increased participation by jumping back into in-person meetings. He said hybrid meetings can be held in the Harbormaster’s Office and, since September, the City Council has been meeting in hybrid fashion in City Hall’s Kyrouz Auditorium.
Verga said three hybrid meeting rooms are being created in the Rose Baker Senior Center with a goal of having city boards and commissions holding hybrid meetings starting in the New Year.
He said there will be a lot of outreach for the update of the city’s master plan.
“There are outreach efforts going on. Could it be better, absolutely, that’s what we are working on,” Verga said.
Rose said public engagement is central to a healthy democracy and one of four focus areas of her campaign.
“I have witnessed the loss of public engagement, not for lack of trying, or want, but for lack of being listened to and heard. I think that it takes an enormous amount of time and effort to follow what’s going on in this government. I’m not sure when we got so large and bureaucratic and difficult to follow, but I think that is a problem.”
Rose said several factors prevent people from speaking up. She was not sure “why we have such a closed-door policy in so many areas of our government, but having been part of that I can assure you that is indeed the case.”
She added, “I think that we have funneled everything on too small of a sounding board where it’s become sort of an echo chamber where the same ideas are being heard over and over again.”
She said you don’t have to ask too many people why they don’t participate or speak up, or work for the government.
“If I had a nickel for every city employee who told me ‘I would love to support you but I can’t do it outwardly because I would fear for my job’ I would be a very wealthy person,” Rose said.
She said running for mayor has been eye-opening “to the ugly undercurrent of local politics.”
“If the system is truly open,” Rose added, “transparent and above board, there is absolutely no reason to alienate or attack anyone. If we are all truly doing our best for the city and the common good, why would you need to debase anyone who is willing to run for office, become part of a committee, work for the city or voice their opinion, that’s it,” she said to loud applause.
“If any part of that was accurate, I would address it,” Verga rebutted.
He called it “malarkey” to some groans in the room.
“When you are running for office you can say what you want, but if you work for the city for five months you can discuss what it is you want about what has happened before and after you left the city. I do not feel that our employees feel a morale issue. I have a very open-door policy. I have had a lot of controversial issues going on within the city and I have these people coming in in groups and I let them yell at me as much as they want to and so I just find that to be a bit … You can make the claims, you can’t back the claims. That’s all I’m going to say to that.”
“I’m a little bit offended,” Rose said, “that you think I can’t speak to what I actually experienced and I’m really interested in that five-month stint that I did that I’d love for you to talk to if you would like to.” Rose said she came into a department that was a mess, “your words and the rest of the city’s words, not mine.”
“I improved that department and I was summarily dismissed without explanation,” she said, adding “I know what I know, I saw what I saw and it was alarming and unfortunate.”
“I’m sorry but I can’t let that one go,” Verga said after his first rebuttal time was up.
“We can’t do this,” Rose said.
“Yes we can,” Verga said as Rose raised objections about following the rules of the debate.
Verga later used some of his time on the next question to say that any former employee “can make any claim they want as to the reason they were dismissed. I am bound by the law not to talk personnel issues. But any former employee could authorize the release of any personnel documents to back their claims.”
Rose also took her time to talk off topic to tell Verga that “if you are going to call me out on something you should at least call me out directly.” She said her personnel record is open and available.
MBTA communities question
In the second part of the debate featuring questions from the audience, the candidates sparred on a question about compliance with the state law requiring MBTA communities such as Gloucester to zone for multifamily housing around MBTA transit stations, amid concerns about over-development downtown.
Rose said the city could lose opportunities to apply for certain grants “and if we didn’t get those grants we would have to tighten our belts and see what we can do without them, but I think that that is worth the risk” to try to maintain the quality of life in the city.
“I think it’s important to have a relationship with the state and not necessarily be in bed with them,” she said. “Clearly being able to build cooperative agreements where they see our reality, and handing out mandates in a one-size fits all is not just realistic.”
“So the 3A law is the 3A law,” Verga said, referring to the transit-oriented development mandate. “It is not up for discussion with the state.”
The mayor said this was made clear by the attorney general earlier this year. He said several communities who have not come into interim compliance with the law have seen a 10% cut in funding for their housing authorities.
“I don’t think 3A is a super thing,” Verga said. “I don’t think one size fits all by any stretch.” But, he said, he took an oath to uphold the laws of the Commonwealth. “3A is something we could ignore or we could find a way to make it work to the best of our ability.” The zoning charges contemplated in the law will be part of the discussion of the city’s comprehensive planning initiative.
“Law or mandate,” Rose said, “every single person that I have tried to talk to about this gives a different answer for a law that is supposedly not that complex but seems to be complex and until I’m sitting down with people who actually understand legalese and can clarify what we are proposing to doing, I stand as still not automatically complying with what they are asking.”
“As someone who has sat with people who understand legalese, I do know what we are up against,” Verga said.
He said he spoke with Gov. Maura Healey at a mayors’ meeting last month and asked her about the law, saying she needed to do better messaging.
“There is still confusion within our communities about whether or not this is optional, and I said, ‘It would be great if we had more carrots and a lot less sticks.’”
City Councilor at-Large Jason Grow, who chairs the council’s Planning and Development subcommittee, asked Rose and Verga about their understanding of the new law.
“Basically, it’s a mandate to zone, not a mandate to build, it’s that simple,” Verga said. He said if every unit was built out because of the new zoning, it would be 2,270 units. “But it is not a mandate to build. When people say things like ‘The state’s going to make us build on Burnham’s Field to make this happen,’ that is a myth. It is a mandate to zone; it’s not a mandate to build.” He said he does not support high-rise apartment buildings every few feet, but he did not want to see the city in court for years fighting a losing battle.
Rose said in the short time she has been running for mayor she has a lot to catch up on “and so I don’t have near the knowledge that my friend here to my right would have and should have on this issue as I’m sure you have as a councilor. I just have to learn more.”
Grow asked if she did not understand the law, how she could categorically oppose it.
“Because I represent the people of this city and the people of this city do not understand it. Most of the residents I have spoken with do not understand it. So I am opposing it on their behalf because it is my job as the potential mayor of the city to actually represent the people of this city, that’s why I oppose it,” she said to applause.
“I represent the people of this city, all of the people of the city,” Verga said, “and the job of the mayor is to learn the details and you do what is the right thing to the best interest of the majority, the most good for the most people for the most time, that’s been my mantra from since Day 1.”
This debate and other election information may be accessed at 1623Studios.org.